Irony: Middle Eastern Style
March 08, 2005
Posted by kris at March 8, 2005 12:25 PM
The trackback entry for this page is : http://www.inthehat.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/743
The AP reports that 500,000 demonstrators rallied in Beirut today in support of Syrian. Remember folks, take that 500,000 number with a grain of salt, as the media has certainly been known to play fast and loose with their coverage of protests, particularly if those protests are anti-American. Also, note this, which was buried near the bottom of the story:
At least one opposition leader said the pro-Syrian government pressured people to turn out Tuesday and some reports said Syria bused in people from across the border.
Makes sense. After all, the Syrians are still in charge.
Anyway, on to the irony. I love this little description of the protest scene:
Large cranes hoisted two giant red-and-white flags bearing Lebanon's cedar tree. On one, the words, "Thank you Syria," were written in English; on the other, "No to foreign interference."
Alanis, where are you when we really need you?
Posted by kris at March 8, 2005 12:25 PM
The trackback entry for this page is : http://www.inthehat.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/743
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Comments
| # March 8th, 2005 8:19 PM jonts |
|
Hmmm, a somehwat one sided view of irony. The real irony here is that the US is calling for no foreign interferance in Syria while occupying Iraq next door! It was funny watching Bush speaking live about the middle east yesterday talking about the huge crowds turning out in Lebabnon demanding Syria leave; as he was talking the ticker across the bottom of the screen is news flashing hundreds of thousands lenanese demonstrating in spport of Syria. |
| # March 8th, 2005 8:25 PM jonts |
| Its OK, even Fox news said there could have been upto a million demonstrators. And if Fox news are saying that- given their own Bush agenda- then we know it must have been a big demo (certainly bigger then those tiny anti-Syria 'tens of thousands' demos earlier in the week.
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| # March 8th, 2005 8:40 PM james |
| jonts,
bush wasn't calling for "no foreign interference," he was warning against future "syrian interference." the irony here, is .... well, never mind. let me help you out: "Occupation after liberating a nation" = GOOD. "Occupation by a dictator to suppress the populace" = BAD. how someone could try to color occupations by the US and by Syria as being the same thing completely escapes me. |
| # March 8th, 2005 9:43 PM kris |
| You know, I can't believe I missed the opportunity to draw a comparison between Syria busing protestors to Lebanon and Illinois Dems allegedly busing voters to Wisconsin. Shame on me. |
| # March 8th, 2005 10:23 PM jonts |
| James
US- invading a country under a false causus belli and then overseeing an occupation that fails to bring peace and stability= Bad Syria- being invited into a country to bring stability and then overseeing one of the most vibrant and liberal conutries in the middle east= Good I actually believe that Syria should withdraw (and US too)- but i had to point out some of the facts in the face of some of the pro-bush posters here who are whipping themselves into a righteous indignation over Syrias occupation while tending to dismiss the reality on the ground e.g. US occupation of iraq is not bringing stability to that country, there are many in Lebanon -like those who demonstrated yesterday- who prefer to have stabilty, a job and safety for the families under syrian occupation rather than risk a return to insability if syria withdraws. "bush wasn't calling for "no foreign interference," he was warning against future "syrian interference." " There are plenty of iraqis who think that the US is 'interfering'-for the worse- in Iraq. The world is not black and white and as the saying goes- one mans 'freedom figher' is another 'mans terrorist'. A fairly obvious statement but one which many right wing people fail to understand (remember the "we'll be welcomed by flowers and cheering crowds" statements by the neo-cons before the iraqi invasion?) |
| # March 8th, 2005 10:39 PM james |
| ok there jonts
I'm sure it was a total and absolute failure. we were welcomed by flowers and cheering crowds. i'd be happy to put together a collection of articles for you in exchange for a donation of $200 to the site. you'll note that most every liberal pundit has stopped making the nutty assertion that iraq was a "failure" b/c they have nothing much left to say after the overwhelmingly successful elections. but you haven't. i'm sure it's b/c youre smarter than them, and smarter than me and my right wing brethren, b/c you see the world in many colors, whereas my puny right wing mind can only see in black and white! man, i hate being such a dumb dog! thank god we have you, jonts, to fight the good fight, to show us where we are all so delightfully ignorant. |
| # March 8th, 2005 11:12 PM Daddy |
| I just don't trust the mainstream media with this one...
Yeah, it was both puzzling and disturbing to see the "half a million" (did they misplace a decimal point?) "Lebanese" (meaning "someone from Lebanon", not someone bused in from Syria, or Palestine, or someone being jabbed in the back with a Hezbollah member's AK-47). (Our enemies are very media savvy. Anybody remember "Baby Milk Plant Iraq"?). Full story coming, I'm sure.... Oh, BTW...nothing like the "peace and stability" of a dictator shoving his political opponents through human shredders and piling them in mass graves.... |
| # March 9th, 2005 2:06 AM jonts |
| Thanks for the link. Im a little dubious about whether this change in the middle east was caused by Bush- the two key current events in Lebanon now and Palestinian elections were caused by the deaths of two people not by any Bush policy.
|
| # March 9th, 2005 2:14 AM jonts |
| Daddy
"or someone being jabbed in the back with a Hezbollah member's AK-47" To Label hezbollah as simply terrorists is another classic case of trying to view the world in black and white... Many people in US are unaware that Hezbollah also runs extensive food, medical and education porgrammes in poor communities in Lebanon and Palestine- those 100,000s thousands people support Hezbollah for a good reason. |
| # March 9th, 2005 6:42 AM JohnTant |
Many people in US are unaware that Hezbollah also runs extensive food, medical and education porgrammes in poor communities in Lebanon and Palestine- those 100,000s thousands people support Hezbollah for a good reason. Yeah, and the Nazis made the trains run on time. What's your point? That the innocent people Hezbollah murdered are offset because they offer great welfare benefits for the people they like? |
| # March 9th, 2005 7:49 AM jonts |
| "What's your point?"
My point is that if (as an earlier poster wrote) you believe that the hundreds of thousands of pro-syrian demonstrators were all there because because they were forced to at 'gunpoint' then you are totally ignorant of the real situation i.e. that hezbollah provides food and medicine to thousands of the poorest people in Lebanon and Palestine and thats why hundreds of thousands turned out to voice their support. Now, no doubt hezbollah also has a military wing that carries out terrorist attacks- which i condmen utterly. You cant fight you enemy effectively unless you understand your enemy. And theres a fair few here who dont seem to understand hezbollah or the dynamics of the region.... Like i said- the worlds not a black and white place- sure life would be simpler (and more fun for posters on right wing internet sites) if we could just call hezbollah a force for pure evil that does no good to anyone- but thats not reality. |
| # March 9th, 2005 8:47 AM JohnTant |
My point is that if (as an earlier poster wrote) you believe that the hundreds of thousands of pro-syrian demonstrators were all there because because they were forced to at 'gunpoint' then you are totally ignorant of the real situation i.e. that hezbollah provides food and medicine to thousands of the poorest people in Lebanon and Palestine and thats why hundreds of thousands turned out to voice their support. So to sum up, if they weren't forced there at gunpoint, they were bribed into attending so they wouldn't lose their bennies.... You cant fight you enemy effectively unless you understand your enemy. I think it turns out *we* understand Hezbollah all too well... Like i said- the worlds not a black and white place- sure life would be simpler (and more fun for posters on right wing internet sites) if we could just call hezbollah a force for pure evil that does no good to anyone- but thats not reality. I'm going to refrain from the urge to make fun of yet another "nuance" argument that has now appeared on our comment pages, in favor of pointing out the more glaring point. Hezbollah undoubtedly does things that some people would consider good. And at the risk of invoking Godwin here, I pointed out the Nazis also set up hospitals. Stalin certainly gave food to the poorest people in his regime...assuming they didn't say anything against him, that is. In other words, the point is found in looking at the entire picture. You're committing a gigantic intellectual shortcut when you suggest that because Hezbollah gives away food and medicine to poor people that the terrorist description is not apt. The reality of the situation is that evil organizations often do good things. As I pointed out, the Nazis were pretty good at providing bennies, as was Stalin. That did not make their goals any more palatable (even with the nuance). Bottom line, an organization which countenances the murder of innocents can't claim mitigation because it gives food to the people it approves of. |
| # March 9th, 2005 9:38 AM Daddy |
| WHEW!
Just KNEW something was up... |
| # March 9th, 2005 10:12 AM james |
| child molesters aren't all bad... after all, they give the children candy.
and the kkk does community outreach - they do run a church, after all. and they tried to adopt a highway near my house. clearly, they are a complicated organization, and anyone who says otherwise is oversimpilifying because their right-wing minds cant see the world in jontsacolor, only in black and white. fools! |
| # March 9th, 2005 10:14 AM jonts |
| "they were bribed into attending so they wouldn't lose their bennies.... "
lol Right, Hezobollah has been giving food and medecine to poor families for the last 20 years in a build up to this weeks demo to get them on the streets. "You're committing a gigantic intellectual shortcut when you suggest that because Hezbollah gives away food and medicine to poor people that the terrorist description is not apt" Talking of short cuts, try reading my post before leaping to respond- but just to recap as you missed this sentance in my ealier posting -i wrote """Now, no doubt hezbollah also has a military wing that carries out terrorist attacks- which i condmen utterly. """ What i wrote as opposed to what you wish or believe i wrote are- as you can see nowe that you've properly read my ealier posting- two different things. Classic example- the real facts are inconvenient and life IS more fun/easier if you ignore facts which contradict you own beliefs. Now, you were telling us all about 'nuance', we look forward to your next chapter on the subject ;) |
| # March 9th, 2005 10:28 AM jonts |
| James
"clearly, they are a complicated organization, and anyone who says otherwise is oversimpilifying" Agreed! Finally we find the wheat in the chaff; but you said it much more clearly than i did if i may say so. So to recap- if you choose to beleive that the hundreds of thousands of pro syrian demonstrators were all a) syrians bussed in over the border and/ or b) all there at gun point. Go ahead and your life will be a simpler and possibly happier place. After all how can evil terrorists possibly have popular support right? But as James points out, it is oversimplyfying things and the fact that hezbollah gives food, medecine to poor communities does explain why they are a popular organisation in the region.... |
| # March 9th, 2005 10:42 AM Daddy |
| I was gonna be respectful, asshat, but now the smackdown’s comin’…
The Red Cross runs extensive food and medical programs. The Red Cross does not have a military wing. DO YA SEE THE FREAKIN' DIFFERENCE????? FRIGGIN' HEZBOLLAH IS NOT THE RED F***ING CROSS!! FURTHERMORE, as noted in this article, Hezbollah provides humanitarian services to “the Shia population”. What about the NON-Shia’s? The Sunnis? The Druze? The Kurds? How about the JOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSS??? Think after they send a suicide bomber into a pizza place, a Hezbollah Medevac swoops in to treat the wounded? Imagine the Red Cross in Afghanistan, or Indonesia after the tsunami. Some brown-skinned-person, too injured to move, meekly raises their arm to flag down a Red Cross volunteer…. …and the response being, “Nope. Sorry. You’ve got too much pigmentation in your skin. ANY WHITE PEOPLE HURT???” Again, I repeat: FRIGGIN' HEZBOLLAH IS NOT THE RED F***ING CROSS!! As for the “educational” services they provide, I loved this little tidbit from the article: The former prime minister also accused Hezbollah and pro-Syrian Lebanese intelligence forces of coercing students and municipal workers to attend. "They shut down the schools and all the government and public buildings and pressured students and workers to get to the rally," he said. (I’m just gonna let the….IRONY of that seep in). Might account for the crowd’s enthusiasm—maybe those kids were just happy to get outside, and not have to read the Koran out loud all damn day….? RE your earlier assertion that Syria was “invited”—INVITED!! Christ.—“invited to Lebanon to bring security”: [Lebanese Prime Minister Michel] Aoun is no stranger to revolt against Syria. While prime minister in 1989, he launched a "war of liberation" against Syrian military forces which earlier had invaded Lebanon. The war was highly popular with Lebanese citizens but failed to garner the international opposition needed to successfully oust Syrian troops. Finally: “life would be simpler (and more fun for posters on right wing internet sites)” Ever been to a LIBERAL site? These people never let reality get in the way of their opinions. (There’s another discussion about the use of the modifier “right wing”, as if conservatives have some sort of monopoly on the behavior in question. Apparently, there are no mirrors in liberal households). Sometimes...the world IS as simple as it appears to be. There are such things as overanalyzing, and thinking too much. Somebody once told me a liberal is someone who can't win an argument with themselves. After thinking things through, there has to come a point where one hits their core belief, or finds their common sense being insulted. |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:01 AM jonts |
| Daddy
So hezbollah is a terrorist organisation- well argued, and i dont think any one would disagree with you here, certainly not me (i said hezbollah were terrorist in my first posting). But hoo haa anyway! "RE your earlier assertion that Syria was “invited”—INVITED!! " James, john Either of you two want to let him know that Syria was invited into lebanon in the 1970s to bring stability after the civil war...it seems to be news to Daddy |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:21 AM BVBigBro |
| So, someone is coming out to defend Syria and Hezbollah. Hezbollah is complicated. So what. Hezbollah is evil. Much like every other terrorist organization is evil. What's the point?
Are you trying to say that the Lebanese are simple minded folk easily swayed by a few bread crumbs, or are their minds gentically inferior and unable to grasp the nuances of self government and thus require the guiding hand of their superiors in Hezbollah and Syria. Maybe they have no memories and can't remember that it was the terrorists very presence in Lebanon that got them invaded by Israel. Or maybe they can't remember Syria's role in the civil war that trashed their country. Maybe they are like ants and only work for collective good and will die if they given individual freedom. The whole basis of you argument is incredibly condescending. As for the right wingers here, I recommend rereading yesterday's link on winning arguments. You have missed several excellent opportunities to incorporate Hitler into your arguments. After all, Hitler fed and schooled people. He had a dog, too. That must count for something. |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:28 AM jonts |
| bigbro
"What's the point?" Point was that some people here were psoting that the massive crfowd of pro-syrian demontrators organised by hezbollah were there at 'gunpoint' or they were syrians bussed in (!). Reality is that hezbollah gives alot support to poor communities i.e. many of those people were at the demo coz hezbollah helps them out! I know its uncomfortable for y'all to think that there are people out ther who dont support bush...;) |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:33 AM kris |
| jonts,
it wasn't "some people" here that speculated that Syria persuaded or bussed in protestors. That theory was taken directly from the AP article quoted in the original post. Don't make it sound like it's some halfbaked crackpot theory, please. |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:39 AM BVBigBro |
| No, it was Lebanon's ex PM claiming the demonstrations were staged. Read today's news. How about letting the Lebanese have their country back? Oh, wait a minute, if they get their country back Hezbollah will will have to find a new home. Iran will take them. Maybe North Korea will too.
As an aside, the fun part for me is I'm not a Bush supporter. I'm just amazed at the irrationality of his opposition. |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:39 AM jonts |
| But i notice that many posters here dismiss 'mainstream media' articles such as AP- or are we only refering to media articles if they support our arguements?
To quote Daddy: "I just don't trust the mainstream media with this one... " Its one way or the other, but not both surely?? You decide amongst yourselves, let me know, and ill use what ever ground rules you guys decide on.... |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:41 AM JohnTant |
Right, Hezobollah has been giving food and medecine to poor families for the last 20 years in a build up to this weeks demo to get them on the streets. Well, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to wonder how the conversation went... Hezbollah Thug: So you've been living a life of hopelessness for many years now, living off the crumbs we toss your way. We need a bunch of people to show up and wave signs, so can we expect you to participate or shall I go ahead and tear up your ration card right now? Funny, I never said Hezbollah's "public service" works were in preparation for this one moment in time. Cute mischaracterization on your part. Talking of short cuts, try reading my post before leaping to respond- but just to recap as you missed this sentance in my ealier posting -i wrote """Now, no doubt hezbollah also has a military wing that carries out terrorist attacks- which i condmen utterly. """ And if you read what I had written before you accused me of intellectual dishonesty, you'll note I actually addressed that point. You can condemn the "military wing" all you want, but at the end of the day it's irrelevant. The passing out of food to "acceptable" people in no way mitigates the murder of innocents for political goals. I don't know how I can phrase that more clearly. What i wrote as opposed to what you wish or believe i wrote are- as you can see nowe that you've properly read my ealier posting- two different things. Classic example- the real facts are inconvenient and life IS more fun/easier if you ignore facts which contradict you own beliefs. No, what you're upset about is that Hezbollah doesn't get a pass from killing kids because they pass out food to a bunch of other people. The rest is just embroidery. And hey, aren't you the guy who thinks I'm saying all the free cheese from Hezbollah was in preparation for this one moment in time?!? Funny that suddenly you're accusing me of inventing your position. Now, you were telling us all about 'nuance', we look forward to your next chapter on the subject ;) Well, let's address this comment you made in a vain attempt to pat yourself on the back: (i said hezbollah were terrorist in my first posting) What you actually wrote: To Label hezbollah as simply terrorists is another classic case of trying to view the world in black and white... To which I'd say: you can't get a little bit pregnant. You know, all that stuff is up there for everyone to read...as is the sarcasm of the post from James which you apparently took seriously. ;) |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:43 AM jonts |
|
Bigbro Read my postings and you will see that i said that Syria SHOULD leave lebanon and that i DO think hez b. are a terrorist bunch. Lordy McLord, do people not read each others postings before replying- we'll have a better debate if we do...and save muchos time. |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:44 AM kris |
| jonts,
If you actually read the original post, you'd note that I noted that the quote was buried near the bottom of the story. I don't believe the MSM lies, nor do the vast majority of our posters here. We do believe, however, that they slant the news in a particular way and bury news that might not support their particular spin on the news. |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:47 AM JohnTant |
i DO think hez b. are a terrorist bunch. But...but...that's oversimplifying! Don't you know they do some great things for people in the region? They feed people! They pass out medicine! To simply label them as "terrorists" is just another case of trying to view the world in black and white..... See how ridiculous that sounded? |
| # March 9th, 2005 11:52 AM jonts |
| johntant
"The passing out of food to "acceptable" people in no way mitigates the murder of innocents for political goals." Again , well argued. And i dont think anyone would disagree with you, certainly not me. (Again ,try reading my postings before writing) "as is the sarcasm of the post from James which you apparently took seriously." Gosh, was he being sarcastic? lol Hey guys,it was fun, i have to run now..but ill be posting later today. Remember, Hezb. BAD, free lebanon GOOD, trying to make the world black and white INTELLECTUALLY LAZY. |
| # March 9th, 2005 12:53 PM BVBigBro |
| I read all your posts. Once again they are amazingly condescending towards the Lebanese, and once again it is Lebanon's ex PM saying that the rallies are staged.
Kris, if you're reading this, all I can think of when looking at the pro Syria demonstration is "A club just for us rabbits? I will bet every rabbit will want to join." |
| # March 9th, 2005 1:20 PM kris |
| Heh. I can hear you saying that now ;-) |
| # March 9th, 2005 7:07 PM Daddy |
| I lost track of the original post.
What started all this arguing? What's the point of the argument? A Dr. Phil-ism: "When you're fighting about everything, you're fighting about nothing". I lost track of the point Jonts is trying to make. Best I can figger: Hez is more than just a terrorist group. OK--I'll argue the con. I have other things to get to, so this won't be terribly articulate: Any organized group, esp. one that is ethno-centric, that participates in ongoing violence, has violence as their end goal, regardless of their other activities. As case studies, we can cite white supremacist groups and Nazi Germany. The quasi-social services these groups offer serve 2 purposes: 1-Bait, to recruit members, and instill loyalty in the process; and 2-Cover, to appear less repugnant to outsiders. Best I can do for now. I need to eat and watch "Malcolm in the Middle" reruns. |
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