Dummocrats.com - Gourmet Fare at Guantanamo

# June 12th, 2005 4:58 PM kris

They should put out a Gitmo Cookbook. It'd be great PR and frankly, the menu sounds pretty good

# June 12th, 2005 6:38 PM Laura

I just emailed Hunter to suggest your idea, and further suggest that profits go to some charity that supports the troops. I wish we could do it... I could get a cookbook done up in about a week, excluding photos, and printed in 3 weeks, but then I guess they are copyrighted. Anyway for your enjoyment, here's the Lemon Baked Fish and more official US Navy recipes here.

# June 12th, 2005 6:58 PM james

the US government can't legally own a copyright in anything, not even for a short transitory period. you can reprint all government works and sell them for as much as you want without having to worry about copyright infringement.

# June 12th, 2005 7:03 PM Laura

Hmmm... so we'd just need to get the info... If I were to do this, (if I can acquire the menus) would you be interested in selling them on Dummocrats?

# June 12th, 2005 7:06 PM kris

Well, I would be, as long as the profits went to a charity. I'm sure we could also get other bloggers to run some banners promoting it too. Hell, I'd write up some press releases as I'm sure something like this has a chance of getting picked up by the traditional media too.

# June 12th, 2005 7:09 PM Laura

Sure, I don't want to make a profit, just a point. As Kris said, it would be great PR. All this bandying about of the word "torture" has frankly pissed me off and this would be a fun way to make a point about it.

# June 12th, 2005 7:12 PM james

i think it sounds like a fine idea, though i know nothing about making books.

# June 12th, 2005 7:14 PM kris

Right, the focus has to be on the compassion of America. Here we have these prisoners who are the worst of the worst, and America still bothers to bend over backwards to accomodate these people.

# June 12th, 2005 7:15 PM Laura

I've never done a cookbook but I've done a bunch of technical manuals and courseware manuals for SAP and other proprietary software. How hard can it be?

# June 12th, 2005 7:16 PM Laura

(famous last words...)

# June 12th, 2005 7:20 PM james

what style of book are you thinking, e.g. hardbound, spiral bound, pamphlet? how many colors? what's the estimated printing cost? just thinking out loud, ideally, we could print them, send out emails to reporters/bloggers, then follow emails up with a free copy via mail, making sure that they all know that all proceeds go to an appropriate charity.

# June 12th, 2005 7:23 PM kris

This is one of those instances where a less partisan URL would come in handy

# June 12th, 2005 7:24 PM james

nah, sell the cookbook via "guantanamo cookbook.com' or something, then a "brought to you by dummocrats" appears on the site and in the book,

# June 12th, 2005 7:31 PM Laura

In the interest of speed, I was thinking of using a company that prints fundraising cookbooks. I checked out a bunch when I was VP of the parent organization at my daughters school. Easy to do, just upload recipes and photos, standard layouts, spiral bound, at the time I think about $5 a book, I'd have to check to get the latest numbers. I think this is an item that would sell. If someone else put one together I'd buy it, no question. I don't have a huge need for bulk recipes, but I think conservatives would buy it because they're sick of the torture allegations. Maybe that's just me, though...

I wasn't thinking "all proceeds" to go to a charity, I was thinking profits. I can't afford to pay to print the books.

# June 12th, 2005 7:33 PM kris

I was thinking profits too.

Hmm...I don't think anyone wants the bulk recipes. I think we'd need to adjust them to 6 or 8 servings or something.

# June 12th, 2005 7:37 PM Laura

We could have both. Of course if you look, these are definitely not gourmet recipes. I just bought gitmocookbook.com. Just in case. I've been googling for a way to email somebody at gitmo to get the menus and recipes, but the official site is down. Probably for security reasons. Blackfive might be able to put me in touch with somebody... lotsa military folks around his site.

# June 12th, 2005 7:46 PM Walleye

Try to go through the SOUTHCOMM Public Affairs office at *** With a quick explanation of your plan they may be willing/able to help you out. If that doesn't work. re-post here and I'll see if I can find any "old friends"

# June 12th, 2005 7:48 PM kris

Keep us up to date on your progress. I'd be happy to write up some press releases and we can also do some promotional banners here

# June 12th, 2005 7:51 PM Laura

Thanks Walleye, I grabbed the email address and then deleted it so it doesn't get crawled for spam. I'm emailing now so hopefully they will respond tomorrow...

# June 12th, 2005 7:58 PM james

i'll donate webhosting for the url, if you need it.

# June 12th, 2005 8:00 PM Laura

This is exciting, Kris that was a brilliant idea. Cover picture - beautiful table setting as in a 4 star restaurant, with the diner (face not shown) wearing an orange jumpsuit?

# June 12th, 2005 8:02 PM kris

heh. or, alternatively, a handsome military man in uniform, with a chef's hat

what we should also do is test some of the recipes and put in some short reviews of them.

# June 12th, 2005 8:03 PM james

heh, maybe tant could provide the chef's hat.

# June 12th, 2005 8:07 PM james

i vote for the laura cover.

# June 12th, 2005 8:11 PM Laura

Pricing looks really good; lowest number of books we can order is 200 but I suspect we'd sell out quickly. You guys have any particular charities in mind or should we pick several and spread it out?

# June 12th, 2005 8:19 PM kris

I would recommend picking one charity, I think that's easier to explain. It's possible that the troops in Gitmo even have a preferred charity and, if so, I'd default to that.

I think the Laura cover is great and it'd actually be pretty easy to set up. My only worry is that it might be too provocative. Although, the whole idea is provocative, so I probably shouldn't worry about that.

# June 12th, 2005 8:25 PM Walleye

Since the article references MREs, if you choose to make and then comment upon the recipies, it could be interesting (and daring) to sample the MRE that most closely resembles the recipie you are presenting. this link: http://www.mreinfo.com/mre-menus.html will take you to all of the available MRE menus currently in use by year. This gives the reviewer a chance to evaluate the recipie on its own merits as well as stacked up against MRE cuisine.

# June 12th, 2005 8:31 PM james

i have an MRE source - i think they run about $7 each at the PX. might be fun to sell them along side. though im not sure if there is anything illegal or "against the rules" in doing that.

i've had many MRE's, and, you know what? I like them.

# June 12th, 2005 8:33 PM Laura

Now, where to get an orange jumpsuit? Actually, I need to get the menus and recipes first, then worry about the jumpsuit. I sure hope that Blackfive or the person at the address from Walleye get back to me quickly, and that they can help.

I picked out a publisher to do the printing, compared to the other companies I checked out they seem most reasonable in pricing and lots of features. As soon as we get the recipes I can start putting them in the system online, then we have to do the conversions and maybe make suggestions? As in the Lemon Baked Fish recipe, we might have notes at the bottom; Laura recommends this be served with... Kris suggests adding rosemary. That kind of thing. What do you think? Any other features to add?

We will also need an introduction - I can work that up but if any of y'all are inclined I will gladly hand it over - I'll have plenty to do with getting recipes input into the system.

# June 12th, 2005 8:33 PM Laura

Walleye, great idea!

# June 12th, 2005 8:36 PM kris

I think it's illegal to resell MREs, at least that's what the link Walleye provided says.

Notes and suggestions are great. While this is a novelty item, it'll also be cool if people could actually use it. Middle eastern food really is healthy and delicious (except for Israeli food) so in addition to making a point you should be able to make a great meal.

I'd be happy to write. This would be a very fun piece to add to my portfolio.

On the jumpsuit...I'm guessing that more than one person dressed up in orange jumpsuits for Halloween last year. The thrift store right near me is one of Madison's big Halloween stores, so maybe they have some. My friend is looking for a reason to go back there to flirt with an employee, so this will give us the perfect excuse.

# June 12th, 2005 8:41 PM james

kris, im sure that any thrift store in WI has an orange jumpsuit.

# June 12th, 2005 8:43 PM BVBigBro

You used to able to buy MRE's at surplus stores. They were big for hiking and also during the Y2K sky is falling phase.

# June 12th, 2005 8:44 PM kris

uh, yeah...good point on the orange. do you even have to ask if i'm blonde?

# June 12th, 2005 9:10 PM Laura

::: daydreaming of Instalanches ::: you think? In all seriousness, if we can do this, it'll be a nifty way to raise some funds for the troops and stick a finger in the eye of people who toss the word torture around so freely.

# June 12th, 2005 9:31 PM BVBigBro

If you feed these to your kids are you guilty of child abuse? Perhaps the cookbook could contain ringing endorsements from kids on whom these recipes have been tested.

Do the recipes have names like Gitmo goulash or cave dweller stew? Troglodyte truffles?

# June 12th, 2005 9:34 PM Laura

Jackpot! the Naval Logistics Library Recipe Repository

BVBigBro, my current cooking could probably qualify as child abuse, so I haven't got much to lose.

# June 12th, 2005 9:38 PM BVBigBro

These recipes contain nutritional info, so you could go the extra mile and create the Gitmo diet. You would probably incur some legal liabilities, however.

# June 12th, 2005 9:43 PM BVBigBro

The recipes also contain rather large quantities, such as lemon baked fish requiring thirty pounds of fish and 12oz. of butter. Either the quantities will have to be adjusted, or the recipes will have to be qualified with statements like "feeds one frigate".

# June 12th, 2005 9:44 PM Laura

I was thinking of that, actually. But the thing is, Gitmo detainees are getting over 2000 calories a day, according to the article. That's certainly not a weight loss diet, unless we changed the menus as described by Rep. Hunter, but the whole point was to show that these guys are being treated well and not abused... so I can't make the diet idea work in that context. I'd love to though.

# June 12th, 2005 9:46 PM Laura

Yes, Kris was saying we also need to bring it down to 6-8 servings. So if we have the original Navy recipes, which will also be useful for churches and other organizations who need to feed crowds, plus the "family sized" version I think that'll work out well.

# June 12th, 2005 10:34 PM Laura

We've got the publisher, got the recipes (well, some), I'm doing the website, Kris is doing the intro, now to sell online... There's a company I've used before for clients for merchant processing - I'll email you the details.

# June 12th, 2005 11:39 PM Walleye

It looks like buying full MRE meals on-line is tough without buying a case (I don't recommend it, but like James, I actually like some of them). If anyone is near an Army/Navy (should be the other way around) store, that is the best bet. I'll snoop the on-line exchange and see what's available. I get the impression that James has access to that option as well.

# June 13th, 2005 12:19 AM mbrlr

Where is Lewis Carroll when he's needed?

"Right, the focus has to be on the compassion of America. Here we have these prisoners who are the worst of the worst, and America still bothers to bend over backwards to accomodate these people." Geneva Convention, anyone? Oh, king's X. That doesn't apply, per this administration. Some form of due process or a means of challenging this...whatever it is would be nice...and yes, I know they're primarily foreign nationals, but...sheesh. I think I'd trade a hearty meal for a real means of challenginging my being held illegally, but maybe that's just me. What do the ones transferred out of Guantanamo to foreign countries to be brutalized get? Extra dessert?

Our entire system is built upon a respect for due process. We now have a prison where there is no real form of due process for any of these folks, terrorist or no. It is shameful and we will be ashamed of this, and I hope it's within my lifetime.

# June 13th, 2005 8:33 AM BVBigBro

How are they being held illegally? In all past conflicts such people were summarily executed.

# June 13th, 2005 8:34 AM JohnTant

A couple of notes on MREs...

Yes, it is "illegal" for the vendors to resell them. The MRE kits are made specifically for the US military and the contract doesn't let the vendor sell them to anyone else. Of course, what the government does with them after they buy them is up to the government...

However, the way vendors have gotten around this rule is to sell "Mil Spec" MREs. They have the stuff that a regular MRE has and generally have the same menus, but they aren't the "official" MRE. Think of the kits you see in the store or online as generic MREs (this is different than what you may see in a PX, of course). Same food, mostly, same ambience, but a snazzier outer pouch. Occasionally you'll see real military MREs on EBay or other sites, but since by definition those people are selling stolen government property it might be a good idea to steer clear of them. Just saying.

As for the gourmet menus, the military actually puts a great deal of time and effort into the quality of their food. Don't laugh. The theory is that nothing directly impacts morale more than the food you're eating. But with that, I really doubt the military's version of orange glazed chicken is on a par with what you'll get from Chen Kinichi. Again, just saying.

Edited to add: I don't think it's fair to compare what troops on the front lines are receiving vs. what's being served in a base mess. The food at bases is generally better than what is available in the field. The Marines at Gitmo are also undoubtedly eating better than the Marines in the field. Now if the Marines at Gitmo are getting food inferior to those "torture victims," then I think there would be a problem.

# June 13th, 2005 9:10 AM kris

One of the points in the original article was that the troops probably were getting worse food than the prisoners.

I don't doubt that the food is probably pretty good. Military cooks take just as much pride in what they do as anyone else, right?

I was thinking about how our treatment of prisoners has changed over the years. My grandfather had German POWs who worked on the cranberry marshes in the summer in Wisconsin. My Dad remembered how appalled they were when they were given sweet corn (apparently they didn't have that in Germany-who knew?) and how bewildered they were by ice cream sandwiches (they tried to save them until later).

My point is that we've generally always treated prisoners far, far better than our enemies have, but now, we've even gotten to the point where we're bending over backwards to accomodate them...going so far as to serve foods they're familiar with. I doubt our legitimate POWs in Iraq were served burgers and fries.

# June 13th, 2005 9:33 AM Laura

My grandmother volunteered in Fort Lewis, a POW camp in Washington state while my grandfather was overseas. There was a POW who liked to paint, so with her own money she bought him some paints and supplies. The painting of Mt. Rainier that he made for her is a prized part of our family history.

Rhonda Cornum, the female POW in the first Gulf war, said in her book She Went to War that she was treated decently once she got to the hospital. But no burgers and fries, and nobody offered her a bible. I don't know that she wanted one, but it wasn't an option.

# June 13th, 2005 9:37 AM BrianH

If you get this book together, I'll buy one.

Some suggestions:

Keep the original bulk recipe and also adjust it to feed 4 (or 6 or whatever).

DON'T show any wine or wine bottles or beer or any other alchoholic drink in any of the pictures. Don't include any recipe that uses wine as an ingredient. Strict Muslims do not use alchohol. (Brats -n- Beer are definately out.) I don't know of any other Muslim dietary restrictions, but I could ask the neighbors (a Palestinian family from Jordan) if there's a doubt.

# June 13th, 2005 9:45 AM JohnTant

Well, just saying. :) Take a Marine stationed at Camp Pendleton and one with the 3rd Bn, 2nd Marines in Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure the guy at Pendleton is getting better food than the fellas humping around Oruzgan. But there are logistical problems in getting that guy in Afghanistan his orange glazed chicken and fresh fruit roupee. That's why he has his MRE, not because he's giving up his gourmet meal to a detainee at Gitmo. It's a distinction I wasn't sure the original story was making.

So that's why I think it's more realistic to compare what the troops at Gitmo are getting versus what our "torture victims" are receiving. In garrison, troops probably aren't eating MREs unless they are training in the field or otherwise can't leave their post (one reason is that MREs tend to be very high calorie which suits a guy in the field just fine...but not a guy sitting in garrison). But if our guys at Gitmo are being denied food they otherwise would have had so detainees could have it, then yes I think there's a problem.

But that's all beside the main point Kris makes, which is that we treat prisoners pretty darn well, especially in comparison to how our guys tend to get treated. I don't think that can even be open for honest debate.

# June 13th, 2005 9:46 AM Laura

Brian, yes, the plan is to use the original Navy recipes, and have scaled down versions available. I'm familiar with Muslim dietary restrictions - my cousins lived in Saudi, Yemen, and Kuwait for years when their dad was stationed over there, so I have a passing familiarity with the culture through them.

# June 13th, 2005 9:53 AM kris

Actually, I don't think there's a problem with the food the detainees at Gitmo are getting. I'm not upset that they're getting good food at all, and I don't want them to get crappy food instead or anything.

Frankly, I thought the menu items sounded good and it'd be fun to try some.

# June 13th, 2005 10:03 AM Laura

The detainees and the troops at Gitmo are getting basically the same food, according to Chief Warrant Office James Kluck in this Slate article. (I emailed him last night, btw...) Although most troops are probably getting the regular version of recipes instead of halal, since halal meat is so much more expensive.

# June 13th, 2005 10:11 AM BVBigBro

Our dad was at Fort Lewis in the early 50's I believe. Our grandfather had German POWs in WWII as laborers. They were fed the same as everyone else that was working in the field.

# June 13th, 2005 10:29 AM kris

To be honest, I'm not sure a comparison to MREs is necessary at all. The point isn't that these detainees are getting anything better than the troops, it's that not only are they well taken care of, they're taken care in accordance with their religious and cultural norms

# June 13th, 2005 1:10 PM Laura

YES! Hunter is on Fox News right now (this is probably why his press secretary was not available when I called) talking about food at Gitmo and held up the menu and said, this is what I have given you all copies of.

So those menus are definitely out; I'm sure we can get them now.

# June 13th, 2005 3:20 PM Laura

All right. That was enough fooling around, calling Congresscritters, saying pretty please.

I called the Joint Task Force - Guantanamo Bay Public Affairs office and spoke to a very nice man who will email me the menus. I also asked him if the Gitmo troops favor a particular charity.

So it looks like this project is a go - he said he will get the menus to me tomorrow.

# June 13th, 2005 5:51 PM kris

awesome. i'll start working on some intro ideas. and, once we have some recipes, we can get cookin'

# June 13th, 2005 6:01 PM Laura

I'll try to get video of my husband when he opens the phone bill. That was my first overseas phone call; I usually videoconference with friends overseas through my cable connection so no charge. So this ought to be... interesting. :-)

I'm having a hard time locating an orange jumpsuit, but I have a model, photographer, and props lined up. If you can get your hands on a jumpsuit, let me know.

Also, I'm looking over various charities; hopefully the Gitmo folks will pick one and make it simple, because there are a TON to choose from.

So... the big question at this point is who's going on Fox News? Since it's a Republican propaganda outlet, probably Bill O'Reilly is going to want to speak to someone about this cookbook. I don't want to do it.

# June 13th, 2005 6:14 PM BVBigBro

the gitmo cookbook could conclude with a few gitmo suggestions such as the aforementioned shrimp etouffe or mom's old fashioned potato salad.

# June 13th, 2005 6:17 PM kris

That's not a bad idea, but we'd have to be careful that the recipes complied with Arab dietary guidelines-so, for example, shrimp etouffe would be out because of the sherry

# June 13th, 2005 6:25 PM BVBigBro

Well, there's probably a non-alcoholic sherry substitute somewhere.

# June 13th, 2005 6:30 PM kris

Oh come on! I'm not going to bend over backwards for these terrorists! They just won't get to eat the delicious shrimp dish ;-)

# June 13th, 2005 6:37 PM Laura

I think we should just stick to the Navy recipes.

# June 13th, 2005 6:45 PM BVBigBro

I suppose they can't have dad's favorite c-rations either: beans and franks.